So one day a long, long, time ago (well at least in dog time) I was on the phone with Alan. He mentioned that even German Corps can be overrun. At the time I was excited about this prospect, but I had to wait with anticipation, because my Soviets were no where near putting the Tank Armies on the map since my game just started.
Fast forward to today and I look at the rules, and I don't see how it is possible. So I'm looking for verification. The ETO rules (1-42) and the TitE rules as writ BOTH say the same thing, "... can overrun a hex containing a single, 1-step enemy Ground unit ... "
So the German Korps are all two step units ... so even if the Korps is flipped (reduced), and there is one (1) step REMAINING, it can not be overrun, correct? Effectively, the majority of units that can be overrun then tend to be the Soviet Corps (?-4, ?-5, and Guard Corps).
ORRRRRRRR, did the intent of the rule mean one (1) step remaining can be overrun?
As an aside, the rules from the Overrun Section [223.0] do not allow for an overrun due to a Breakthrough result. You should add that into 223.0 as an allowable action. (There are no MPs to spend during a BT, but 223.0 states you must spend one additional (+1) MP to perform an overrun.
As always, thanks in advance!
Doc
Oh crap, it's right there in #4--sorry! :D
Sorry, I don't me to be obtuse, but WHERE does this proffered change go?
[223.0] Overruns
Overruns are a function of Ground unit movement; they are not a function of combat per se, but consider the overrunning unit “the attacker” and the overrun unit “the defender” where that distinction helps.
Weather permitting (see 126.0), during either of your MovementPhases and even during Breakthrough Advance After Combat (see 238.5), your single Motorized Ground unit can overrun a hex containing a single, 1-step (i.e., a Small or Medium unit having a stripe behind its unit values) enemy Ground unit by spending one additional (+1) Movement Point (except during a Breakthrough Advance) to enter that hex (this is in addition to the normal cost to enter that hex during movement). During this brief moment, these enemy units exist in the overrun unit’s hex.
Immediately roll a die (z) to resolve that overrun. That overrunning unit must have an Attack Strength of 10 or greater or, when conducting an overrun in the Desert Theater, 5 or greater (after halving for any supply or terrain effect; units halved twice cannot overrun).
If an overrunning unit can continue to move (i.e., it did not enter an EZOC in the overrun hex; see 211.0), and has Movement Points remaining, it may do so (even conducting another overrun if circumstances and its Movement Allowance permit).
It looks to me like that is already covered in #4 (above)....
Alan, as David said, which is now 4 posts prior to this. :-)
The rule is 223.0 Overruns, and your proffered amendment's first para three posts prior to this. I missed the need for ten strength points that Sielski saw.
Alan, I would add "single Motorized Ground unit of 10 or more SPs" ...
Where, exactly, would you add that? I need context, please. Like a rule number and paragraph. I must beg all of you to be mindful of my time right now as I try to push this whole project forward and cite rules numbers, paragraphs, bullet points, etc. Please "zoom" me to where you want me to go, and I will zoom there. :D
Alan, I would add "single Motorized Ground unit of 10 or more SPs" ...
David,
"By observation, a Stripe indicates that there is no weaker side of the counter, though the unit may have a weaker state that is represented by another counter or two. All Ground units without Stripes can flip to a weaker strength when absorbing a step-loss. The Striped side of an Army Breaks Down to a Corps/two Corps with a loss;"
For me, that was what I thought the dots on the top right were for ... 3 for a Full army, 2 was flipped, and 1 was the Corps ... that stripe just messed things up on the Soviet Army (for me at least). It just seems if you have the dots, then you don't need the stripe on a 4-5-4 Army. Hence all the confusion.
In haste, circling back to this I offer:
Weather permitting (see 126.0), during either of your Movement Phases and even during Breakthrough Advance After Combat (see 238.5), your single Motorized Ground unit can overrun a hex containing a single, 1-step (i.e., a Small or Medium unit having a stripe behind its unit values) enemy Ground unit by spending one additional (+1) Movement Point (except during a Breakthrough Advance) to enter that hex (this is in addition to the normal cost to enter that hex during movement). During this brief moment, these enemy units exist in the overrun unit’s hex.
And for 210.1:
Steps: A “step” is a measure of a unit’s endurance when suffering attritional losses from supply and combat. (This is “step” with a small s; a Step with a capital S is the name for a portion of the Sequence of Play).
· A unit with only one step remaining before it is removed from the map (whether it is replaced by another or not), has a stripe behind its unit values. A Small or Medium unit with a stripe is always a one-step unit.
By observation, a Stripe indicates that there is no weaker side of the counter, though the unit may have a weaker state that is represented by another counter or two. All Ground units without Stripes can flip to a weaker strength when absorbing a step-loss. The Striped side of an Army Breaks Down to a Corps/two Corps with a loss; the Striped side of Medal-Icon units yield a Remnant; all other Striped units go to the Force Pool with a step-loss, except Remnants. I never thought much about this until now.
Do you know why they have a stripe?
"Soviet Reduced Strength Armies have a single stripe, but are not "overrun-able." Well, this is an inconvenient fact. But it's better to get this worked out now than later.
Are you saying the units with stripes are single step units? The above indicates that a unit with a strip can be overrun, and is a single step.
I mention that because Soviet Reduced Strength Armies have a single stripe, but are not "overrun-able." I always wondered what the stripe was for, since they are on the second step of a Soviet Army.
I would say something along the lines of, "... when a single step unit (or the last, non-remnant, step of a larger unit) exist alone in a hex, it can be overrun by ..."
This way, units like Garrisons, Motorized Divisions, and Soviet Mech Corps are identified as single step units. They can be overrun straight out if alone. Then, the "last non-remnant step of a larger formation" such as a Soviet Army (which will be the mystery meat) or a German Korps (which will be flipped) are subject to potential overrun.
That's how I think of it to rectify in my mind what is occurring.
Better?
223.0] Overruns
Overruns are a function of Ground unit movement; they are not a function of combat per se, but consider the overrunning unit “the attacker” and the overrun unit “the defender” where that distinction helps.
Weather permitting (see 126.0), during either of your MovementPhases and even during Breakthrough Advance After Combat (see 238.5), your single Motorized Ground unit can overrun a hex containing a single, 1-step (i.e., having a stripe behind its unit values) enemy Ground unit by spending one additional (+1) Movement Point (except during a Breakthrough Advance) to enter that hex (this is in addition to the normal cost to enter that hex during movement). During this brief moment, these enemy units exist in the overrun unit’s hex.
<<You're going to have to explain to me how a flipped 2-step unit is NOT a 1-step unit. The game has NO MEMORY, while that unit is flipped you're looking at a 1-step unit.>>
in in every game I have played, a two step unit that is flipped is still two step unit. It has a full strength side and a reduced strength side. A single step unit has only one side.
That was how I interpret it.
Since KG and BG Remnants qualify as a step to satisfy a step loss, and since these Remnants appear when a Medal-Icon Corps losses a step, it is reasonable to think of Reduced German Medal-Icon Corps as possessing two steps. There was a time when there were no KG Remnants, and some of us are so familiar with the intended rules that we can miss the implications of the text. Some things about Remnants are different. We cannot Demobilize down to a Remnant; they do not go to the Force Pool when eliminated--they go to the Remnant Holding Box; and though they satisfy Step-Loss results, they do not protect Corps with a Medal Icon from being Overrun when showing a Stripe.
Doc Brian has been the voice of our game, but I'll chime in here on the one step unit as I was the one that was confused. The problem I had is that I assumed/interpreted Medal units as being multi-step units with Corps Remnants being a step (makes sense to me, you're replacing a one step unit with another one step unit, so it's two total steps. 1+1 = 2).
From (see 210.1):
* "A unit with only one step remaining before it is removed from the map (whether it is replaced by another or not), has a strip behind it's unit values."
* A Corps Remnant is never defined as either a one or less than one step unit, but per wording above it's a one step unit.
* Reduced raised armies (while also defined in that rule section and have the two dots) have the same replacement mechanic and are two step units. In my mind the Medal was replacing the dots as a multi-step unit indicator.
While the rule as written is correct, I think the wording of it could be improved. So my logic:
* Medal Corps has one step remaining before removal because it has a strip.
* Corps Remnant also has one step because it has a strip.
* Both together = 2 step unit (1+1).
I didn't read that as "A unit that has a strip behind it's unit values is a one step unit." Only when you triangulate this with the Shattered rule (213.7.1), which isn't even referenced in the overrun rules (223.0), does the design intent become clear.
[223.0] Overruns
Overruns are a function of Ground unit movement; they are not a function of combat per se, but consider the overrunning unit “the attacker” and the overrun unit “the defender” where that distinction helps.
Weather permitting (see 126.0), during either of your Movement Phases and even during Breakthrough Advance After Combat (see 238.5),...
Okay, I don't see the confusion that you can do that as part of a BT advance. It says you can RIGHT THERE in the current text.
...your single Motorized Ground unit can overrun a hex containing a single, 1-step enemy Ground unit...
You're going to have to explain to me how a flipped 2-step unit is NOT a 1-step unit. The game has NO MEMORY, while that unit is flipped you're looking at a 1-step unit.
It would help me find these things if there were rule numbers included...
I agree that all rules pertaining to Overruns should be in one place under Overruns. I have the absurd circumstance of not being able to use Explorer with my Windows 10 to get the ETO rules open. I will spare you guys the boring details of why I cannot fix this right away. Anyway, I know well enough what the rules for both TITE and TITE 2, but not TMS. I have the time to answer questions--much more than Alan.
David,
In TitE rules, there is a reference in another section, that say a unit can be overrun by a BT result, however, I'm pointing out the inconsistency WITHIN the Overrun section, which should be all inclusive of all exceptions and possibilities. Hence my comment to include the possibility to overrun during a BT in the ETO Overrun rules ... for completeness.
A Reduced German Corps CAN be Overrun, because it is a one-step unit when Reduced. Perhaps the text could be more clear--pardon me for not having it in front of me. Sielski, your question about possibly Overrunning during a BT Advance is something I always assumed was legal. So is it?