1. The number of Soviet aviation in reality.
At the beginning of the game, the player starts with 22 Soviet aviation counters.
That's about 4,400 aircraft.
But the Soviets only had on the border with Germany and Romania:
Northern Front 1300 aircraft
The Baltic Fleet 700
Northwestern Front 1300
Western Front 1800
Southwestern Front 2000
Southern Front 1000
Black Sea Fleet 600
1300 long range bombers
Total 10,000 aircraft.
According to official data from the 90s, it was in the 13000 line (including OPL and FarEast), and in long-range bombers 2000.
Accepting only these 10,000 it comes out to us 50 counters (max 65) of Soviet aircraft.
Oh my God!!!
And this is my historical remark. I understand that I will immediately hear that this is how the system came out and it is good.Otherwise the German player would have no chance. There is a way out - Soviet aviation is counted twice. Not 200 aircraft, but 400 per counter. 2. Counters size.
The Soviet air regiment counted 60 aircraft. Two 120 aircraft.
The German Gruppe had 40 aircraft. Three Gruppe consisted of Geshwader - 120 aircraft.
So we have a common number.
It is important because, for example, in the North Army Group there were only about 100 fighter aircraft. So Geshwader. It is a natural system of the smallest German unit on an operational scale.
In the Soviets, the regiments was combined into divisions of 3-5. Simplifying, we have previously replaced the double Soviet tokens. That is 240 aircraft in 4 regiments. Yes!
In 1941, the Germans had:
1 Flotte - 2 bomber counters and 1 fighter counters,
II Fliegerkorps - 2 bombers, 2 fighters, 1 assault,
VIII Fliegerkorps - 1 bombers, 1 fighters, 1 assault, 1 destroyer (Me110)
4 Flotte - 3 bombers, 2 fighters
Additionally - 1 Ju-52 counter. Interestingly - this is the (almost) number of counters of each type that we get as Germany (counting 120 aircraft per counter).
The Soviets, counting 240 aircraft, should have 41-56 aircraft counters.
Is it difficult to understand these disparities? 3. Soviet long range bombers DB-3 out of range of the first German attack on airports.
In the game, DB-3 aircraft or any L-range bombers should not be covered by Sneak Attacks regulations.
Maybe they should start as Air Reserves for clarity (208.3 from the manual).
Well said, David. It has always been a great privilege for me to work with Lance and Frank across many projects. I hope our adventures will continue! :D
I feel like were are damned lucky to have Lance helping us with the history. He brings a vast amount of study to the project.
ETO is not my design, it's Mr.Chadwick's. He has been made aware of Dariusz's comments here. Whether he chooses to respond and/or ultimately implement changes based on those comments is up to him. I've said my piece and have nothing further to add to this discussion.
History is interesting, but our "knowledge" can only be imperfect and sometimes rather uncertain. I would find this difficulty to be frustrating, and would not care to be an historian. If I designed a game, I would explain the history I were assuming to be true, which aspects I would be trying to simulate, and the parameters of deviation I would permit the players. I am comfortable with Lance and Frank's take on the history, but cannot obviously be sure they are right on all points. Perhaps you are right, Dariusz--who can say? Such is my view of all military historians. Certitude seems unreasonable--history cannot be precise.
The solution to excess Soviet aircraft is simple and used in games.
In the first stage, an attack on airports is simply assumed (Barbarossa's special provision for Sneak Attacks) and these 10-20 counters are not put into play (losses in the first days are about 2,000 Soviet planes. But the losses in the first months are about 4000 so according to the system philosophy they can be recognized immediately). At all. Because I-153 are then only for exchange. Another solution regarding too many counters is the introduction of fighters to protect the plot of cities - which is in the campaign game. And we can assume that they are already included in this defense.
These are another 3 fighter counters.
So we still have 17 counters. Some will go on fleet planes, which is planned in the system development. We have 12-14 counters left. In fact, these 3,000 aircraft were not much. Half of them are long range bombers. So some 6 counters. We have 7-8 counters left for fighters and others. This is not much and does not hinder the game.
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/maps/other/Location_June_22_41.jpg
Unfortunately, dear friend, but you were the one who succumbed to Soviet propaganda, which for years created the myth of a weak army with outdated tanks and planes. For several weeks I have been trying to tell you that you are completely wrong in the reconstruction of the Soviets.
I don't blame you because even Glantz, like every man who has never lived in communism, has succumbed to various lies and mirages created by teams of historians from the KGB.
What outdated planes? I-16 fought for two more years. And it successfully.If you are already writing about something, then point to the wrong tactics (e.g. dropping bombs from several kilometers in height, flying after the commander, etc.), as well as the fall of morale, including panic and overestimating the opponent. The gibberish about how reality affects the game and the system is already a horror. Reality may not affect the game badly. Unless on S-F.
Either we try to understand what is and what happened and somehow show it, or we make a toy. Finally, you show a lack of knowledge. We know the exact location of all long-range bomber corps. Among others German bombers could not fly to Leningrad, Kiev or Smolensk.
I have recommended you Mark Solonin's website. There is nothing to be ashamed of that you have no knowledge of the Red Army. Just ask him. Has all the necessary source materials.
The Russians calculated the number of tanks and aircraft for one equipment. There are also data pages. You can read. And these are the findings after the archives were opened, not from the period of propaganda of broken tanks and malfunctioning aircraft. http://militera.lib.ru/h/1941/02.html It is really a shame that so many years after the fall of the USSR there were people in the US who cultivate the KGB lies concealing why in 1941 the USSR suffered a defeat. The communists concealed the truth that people did not want to fight for them and did not help the mass of the accumulated equipment. But these are not the only reasons. It's just that it's easier to believe in lies that there were no tanks or planes.
And maybe they were what we will do in the system with these amounts of counters. I'm sorry but I'm shocked.
To begin with, the Soviet air numbers you're citing are grossly inflated. First, the Soviets deliberately over-reported the size of their air force for propaganda purposes, second those numbers include a lot of planes which were either so obsolete or in such a state of disrepair that all practical purposes they were of zero military value, and finally those numbers also include many aircraft in the civil sector (air liners, transports, crop dusters, recreational flying club planes, etc). Yes, we're aware that the size of the game's VVS is way under strength compared to the "official" roster of Red Air Force aircraft, but we made it that way deliberately to reflect our assessment of the real situation.
Next, adding more air units to allow for greater granularity of asset allocation does not improve the game -- if anything, it worsens it. The intent with ETO was always that it be a relatively simple/fast playing (albeit long, because of the volue of pieces, size of map, and number of turns) "panzer pusher" style game. The air system you see now is actually much more involved that what we'd originally planned (if you want a better sense of where we were at the beginning, look at how "airpower" is handled in the three 'Campaigns in Russia' games), and going even further down the "even greater detail" rabbit hole is definitely not the direction we want to be going.
Finally, your point regarding the DB-3 bombers has some merit, but it's less a question of what their range is than where they were based at the time the invasion kicked off. I'm pretty sure that we don't have data of that of detail, but I'm also not sure it makes much difference. The level of disruption to the Red Air Force extended well beyond simply physical damage to airfields and aircraft, and the time it took them to sort all that confusion out (to restore the logistic and operational system to a point where it could mount an effective mass air campaign against the invaders) is adequately reflected within the current game system effects. Again, it sounds like you're looking for a more detailed level of granularity than this air system is intended to provide.