This game was using the Vassal module to track things but played in person. The only change we make was to have the Romanians, Hungarians, and Italians limited to being south of a hexrow that was a couple of hexes north of Voronezh (the northenmost point of the SW front). We actually just finished July 42 on the current game using no rule changes before we called it. I tried some different strategies as the Germans this time. My July Axis card was the German Generals that allowed infantry to move in ZOCS and get full movement in the special movement. Worked great for cleaning up pockets quickly and got me to Kiev much faster than was normal. I think I took it on the last turn of July and then tried the river crossing card to outflank it in August. Pushed hard to get adjacent to Odessa and Dnepropetrovsk before he could put a 3-pt IDP in them. I managed to take them both before the October reinforcements as well as Smolensk. Also got up to the Narva river line by Leningrad. Weather was excellent all summer other than a few turns. It felt historical up to that point.
Maximum mud turns in the fall slowed things of course and some bad rolls stopped me a few hexes before Stalino though I did manage to take Kharkov (for the first time ever) as well as Orel. Good rolls might have allowed for Stalino to fall in the late fall or winter. Winter and spring were mostly back and forth bludgeoning contests and I managed to get across the final river before Leningrad. Spring mud allowed a huge buildup of the Soviets of course as I really couldn't attack for 5 turns. Being able to take 3-1-6's as losses saved the Soviets and allowed him to keep a line of 8-4's on the map despite the fact that he was being stretched in July 42 and we figured would be out of PPs by the October turn.
I actually managed to cut off Leningrad and take the hex on the other side of the straits but he then immediately counter attacked and kicked me out on a 6 roll on the July 4 turn. That is definitely a hex that should get a 3-pt fort if the Germans are threatening it. Winter attacks had taken the Valdi Hills area and had reached the reservoir by Moscow but their line was solid with 8's all the way to the Black Sea. By the end of July, I had two tank corp in the pool, 3 reduced ones on the map and a ton of reduced infantry. This was after almost being full strength at the start of July. Two fuel left and two equipment with no OPs. Soviets had been making an average of 5-8 attacks every turn since spring mud ended at minimum odds of 2-1 or 3-1 after HQ support even though I was defending with 10 to 16 point piles everywhere. I couldn't really stop infiltration and ZOCs by the 6-4-5's and other armour of course. I was actually taking forts most of the winter rather than building up a couple of cadres just to keep the odds down. I got within three hexes of Moscow (mostly through winter attacks) but there was just no way to get closer. Lots of back and forth there against any hex in clear terrain with or without a fort. Soviets would have run out of PP by Sept 4 and ended July with 23 PP, 11 Fuel, and 19 Equipment.
We decided to stop on July 4 after his successful Leningrad counter attack as there was no way I could make any more progress and was indeed getting pushed back in the Orel area. Things were just getting worse and worse even though he was getting thinner in places.
Comments: I never did use the 1942 Blitzkrieg card as he was so strong. Hard to advance and breakthrough when you are going to get hit by 4-5 hex counter attacks of 11-15 point piles. I'm also not sure what you can do to defend with the Axis if you can't keep the Soviets stretched. You can't have a solid line of 6's as it is too easy to get 3-1's on you and if you stack them, you can get infiltrated unless you have a line of two defenders and then a gap of one hex, anywhere there is a 6-4-5. It still feels like the Soviets are too strong to me though this was they game where they had been stretched the hardest. Getting to the Case Blue victory conditions seems almost impossible let alone, getting a draw for that time frame.
We are debating using a rule that would not allow you to build up army sized units in an enemy ZOC. The new weather rules affecting all motorized army movement at times gave me the idea. While this would affect both sides, it will have a bigger effect on the Soviets as they will have to pull a 4-5-4 out of the line to make it an 8-4. This would not prevent a mystery meat unit from becoming a 4-5-4 as it does not start as an army. I'm thinking this would keep a lot more smaller units in the front but still allow you to build up for counterattacks if you wanted to. German attacks and infiltration would be easier which would allow for a more historical stretching of the Soviets. With the 4-5-4's unable to build in the line, you can't produce an instant counter attack force if the Germans do punch into your lines.
I agree with the Canadian numbers and perhaps gave a wrong impression. They match up closely with the US and both places had a lot of people at home. I just picked them because I was more familiar with it. The percentages I gave are close for both. Ireland was the one that was odd considering it's size is about the same as Denmark. It had about 150,000 under arms if you count reservists. A number certainly enlisted with the British too. If we compare it with Finland, it is somewhat smaller but the numbers under arms are way smaller (1/10th) as it was under no real threat of invasion. My source for Sweden gave a pop of 11 million but it was apparently only six million as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_in_1939 so sorry for the error there. I was mostly just curious as to why Ireland seemed so high. It was the only one that jumped out at me as appearing wrong. Gamewise, it probably won't matter as it will probably have this number reduced for being at peace time mobilization most of the war.
PP is not just based on total population. The Canadian economy also needed workers and it is a big country. Remember you were helping to feed all those in the UK.
The map key is the same as the other Economic mats. I think you have it right.
You're not from Canada by any chance, are you? ;-)
Canada kept a lot of guys at home for defense and to run the factories. Remember, at the end of the day, we're making a game not just positing another textbook history. That means interactivity, victory, balance, and fun. :D
Hopefully, Frank will see your comments and make sure everything looks good to him.
That map is fascinating to see. Thanks for posting it. I'm assuming the solid hexes are VP cities and the empty ones are minor VP centrres. I'm also guessing the the PP centers with black borders are for liberated countries or those that change sides.
I'm curious as to why Ireland (which has about the same population as Denmark in WW2) is at 1PP, while Canada with 3 1/2 times their pop is the same. Comparing army sizes puts Canada and Sweden about the same even though their population is about 1/2 (proximity to Germany would make this reasonable). Britain with about 3 1/2 times the pop of Canada generates 10 times as many PP even though they had a maximum army of about 3 million compared to Sweden and Canada's one million each. Comparing the US to Canada, you have a US pop of 130 million to 11 million. About 9% served in the US and 10% in Canada. While the US is getting 18PP and Canada 1 PP, this does make sense considering that Canada was in the war for about 18 months longer. I guess the Irish reputation for fighting everyone, including themselves, gives a bonus? :)
I was a little surprised at Spain too but the population seems to bear it out. I would have thought the numbers would have been lower but when you compare them to other front line nuetral countries, they seem to show the effects of the civil war as they look to be about half of Sweden's. Numbers are such fun.
Well, that's true RELATIVELY speaking. Just so you know, Frank Chadwick has done stacks of research on this and created real metrics that the game adheres to which keeps very close to history.
I know from experience that part of the problem is PERCEPTION. Think about it... The Axis need EPs to keep their Panzer Corps going, just as the Soviets need them to build Tank + Mech Corps (to make Tank Armies) and keep them going. However, both of those factions eventually have a build/maintain problem later in the war when they have a lot of potential pieces but need their EPs to keep the ones in the field at fight trim.
The Allies actually have it pretty good. Their Big Corps units and Armies are semi=motorized, which means they need manpower. So, by the end of the war, wringing PPs from your production is a big deal and most of your EPs go to maintaining the Merchant Fleet and building an Air Force -- and believe me, the USAAC [United States Army Air Corps] is expensive to build!! (Fortunately for the USA, they may spend 1 Specialist Point per TURN instead of per MONTH as the other nations do).
Here's a look at the ETO Economics:
You'll see tables on their for USA "growth" of their commitment to Europe and the UK's "cost" to maintain The Empire.
Actually, we thought about modifying the upgrade cost for Air units based on size, but that is not is what is represents. Retooling was a very big deal, especially the smaller and more technical Fighter designs.
But I'm glad to hear your game progressing so well! :D
Thought I should give a quick update on this game. We have reached Sept 43 now and the lines are starting to move west but are still running in a fairly straight north/south direction from just east of Odessa, to Kiev and then north. The Axis have no replacements left so this month might see some reduction in strength depending on Soviet rolls. The Soviets are not much better with about 30 PPs left, 10 FPs and 1 EP. Alan was certainly right about them running out of EPs if they took too many 3-1-6s as losses instead of infantry but I still think it is the right decision. Soviet air is starting to be felt with 2-4 missions flying each turn. I'm regretting spending EPs to upgrade some of the air units as they just don't seem to be able to fly unless they have a shield. +2 on the air CRT is just too deadly and +3 is almost pointless . It feels like the tables should be shifted one to the right to encourage more air combat. We're still debating the option to change upgrade and new unit costs to match the size of the air unit so that it would allow you to buy them easier.
That's what I thought too. It seemed far too easy. I knew I should have checked that rule as he has a tendency to misremember things. It felt like the writing was on the wall for him so I'm not upset. Thanks for the clarification.
Stalin NEVER "has to evacuate." Of course, he can be trapped, but not easily:
Evacuation: During any Soviet Special Movement Step, the Soviet player may evacuate the Stalin marker (i.e., the Soviet government) by Rail Movement. Only enemy-occupied hexes (not EZOCs) prohibit Rail Moving the Stalin marker along otherwise-friendly Rail Line hexes. A “narrow escape” is possible!
· It costs 2 Rail Moves to evacuate Stalin and the Soviet government (221.3.1).
· On the turn of evacuation, skip the Soviet Combat Phase. The Generals have lost communication with The Boss.
My opponent said that the rules said Stalin had to evacuate which I thought was wrong but since it was the end of the evening, my laptop with the rules was turned off and I had taken Voronezh, Rostov, had snuck a motorized division into Maikop and was adjacent to the Black Sea port victory city by Maikop, I think he figured it was all over anyway and just misremembered the rule. I still had not taken Sevastopol. The two changes of the double die roll on the Blitzkrieg turn and not allowing armies to build up in a ZOC really made a difference. The army rule did hurt the Axis too but certainly affected the Soviets more. We are still using both in the game we restarted. We are now on Sept 1 and while he has taken Kiev, I still hold the other side of the river and the lines appear to be mostly historical (other than me still holding in front of the Narva river line at Leningrad). I believe we are about to see a big push in the center towards Orel and to force me to move back to Kharkov.
Many is the game where I've seen the Germans bump and grind around Moscow, but Stalin has always defiantly stayed and the Red Army has always squeaked another turn, and then another until the wheels finally came off the Axis' chances.
Well played! 😃
We have switched sides and started over. The Axis are not doing as well since I have a better idea on how to defend
Game ended on Sept 4 41 with a morale victory for the Axis. This was the first time we have ever seen this and only happened because I forced Stalin to evacuate Moscow due to the Soviets allowing me to sneak into hexes on either side of the city and cut it off.
Well, historically, all they did was pretty=much counterattack (and for varying reasons) during 1941. So, I don't know about "too many." There are only so many places that make any sense at all where you can even get odds, after all. :D
Overall, it sounds like things are starting to "click." Outstanding!!
After the last round of comments, we restarted again still using the test rule that does not allow an army to rebuild in a ZOC. We also used the balancing rule for the Blitzkrieg card that allows you to choose the die result after rolling twice. (It doesn't help much if you still roll doubles on EX results on armour attacks). These two in conjunction have allowed the Axis to actually make excellent progress and stretch the Soviets properly. My feeling is that the Soviet player was still making too many counter attacks but a lot were somewhat forced to try break out units. Only more testing will show if I'm right. Both sides are now getting a lot of reduced units with only about three 8-4's on the map on any one turn. As the Axis, I'm feeling that a EX result against one of them is not too bad because they are so hard to build up. Aggressive German play and those Soviet counterattacks causing losses to both sides have got me to a line on Aug 1 that runs from adjacent to Dnieperpetrovsk, running north/south and then swings over to the Narva river line in front of Leningrad. It almost cracked a couple of times but bad die rolls on some attacks (and the ability to take a loss but choose the retreat path) has kept it thin but intact. Having only a couple of cloudy turns has made a big difference too. The August Emergency Mobilization card is going to make a big difference as is usual. This is the first game where I feel that the Axis are ahead of schedule and may actually get to places like Kharkov and Stalino. It will be interesting to see what fall brings.
I think it was in the scenario book Jay but I'm not sure now.
I am remembering but, have not found: When playing a campaign game, you do look at decisive victory levels to see if the campaign game maybe needs to be called.
September IV, 1942: the Germans now must have at least 13 Soviet Objectives.
Same February II, 1943 and at least 11 on August IV, 1943 or the Soviets win.
If you do not get enough kills in the summer of 1941, the Soviets can get very strong. With lots of kills, the Soviets have a tough time keeping a line in the summer of 1942.
I think it is impossible for the Germans advance if they have had a bad Summer of 1941.
Right. Until the Axis players learn how to take Big Risks (which was the whole point of their '41 campaign), that seems necessary. Looking at this picture, the Axis certainly didn't kill enough Soviet steps in '41. Their army is simply huge for this period of the war. 🤔
Well, they likely can't in this particular game being played. However, the Victory Conditions for the Blue scenario, I think, have been updated:
Scenario Victory Conditions Unless an Automatic Decisive Victory immediately ends the game, apply the following at the conclusion of the September IV, 1942 turn: Axis Automatic Decisive: Eliminate Stalin (563.1.A). Axis Decisive: Axis control 20 or more USSR Objectives. Axis Strategic: Axis control 19 USSR Objectives. Axis Operational: Allies control 18 USSR Objectives. Draw: Axis control 16 or 17 USSR Objectives. Soviet Operational: Axis control 14 or 15 USSR Objectives. Soviet Strategic: Axis control 13 USSR Objectives. Soviet Decisive: Axis control 12 or fewer USSR Objectives. Soviet Automatic Decisive: None. The historical outcome was an Axis Operational Victory, ending at the Operation Uranus Scenario setup line. The Axis controlled 18 USSR Objectives: Tallinn, Riga, Kaunas, Minsk, Smolensk, Orel, Lwow, Chisinau, Kiev, Odessa, Sevastopol, Novorossiysk, Dnepropetrovsk, Kharkov, Stalino, Rostov, Maikop, and Stalingrad.
It actually used to be a unit, not a card, but instead, certain HQs can provide a single 2-shift combat benefit in a single battle. That is the tool in your toolbox for taking Sevastopol (and other such key locations).
Thought I should give a quick update on our restart shown earlier. We are now at the end of Oct 42 and as you can see the line has not changed that much after the end of last summer. We have been using the latest playtest version with a test rule that disallows armies from being built up in enemy ZOCs. This has hindered both sides somewhat but has definitely hurt the Soviets far more than the Axis. No more instant building of Shock Armies and 8-4's in the line for immediate counterattacks. The effect on the Axis has been simply to force Army units to break down if they have taken a step loss so they can rebuild in the line. By the end of Sept 42, the Axis had no fuel, not PPs or EPs and only a couple of OPs. The Soviets were not much better with about 15 PPS, 19FPs and 5 EPs with two OPs. 3-1-6s were being taken as constant losses if possible to save on PPs so I could try get some Guards Armies onto the map. The Axis has only been weakened because of constant attacks to try to stretch me, In many ways, it feels more like the end of 43 but with a stronger German force pool. He did crack the Dnieper to the south but decided to shorten his line as I was simply not allowing him to get anywhere down there. Lots of back and forth 2-1's both there and in the area in front of Dnieperpetrovsk. Holding in that area has been something I've tried the last few games and it seems to work well. Through the winter, the German armour was mostly in the center and Smolensk area. Lots of back and forth. Like the Kiev area in the summer, he was close to cracking it but a bad turn of his attacks and a good turn of me recapturing some of the defensible terrain, allowed me to hold on. This is the furthest we have ever made it. I'm sure we would have stopped as there is no way he could reach the Summer of 42 victory conditions for a stalemate but we spotted that they didn't have to be met in a campaign game. (My misreading of this was the reason for my last surrender in Aug 42 during the last game). Soviet attacks this game have been mostly 2-1 or better counting HQ shifts but before air. The odd 3-2 if I have something zoned in or for a critical hex but my luck is not good if I have those 1/6th chances of a loss so I avoid them where I can. I don't feel like we are doing anything particularly wrong but we still have not figured out how the Axis can meet those summer 42 victory conditions or get to where they really did. I've managed Orel, Kharkov, Dnieperpetrovsk, and to break into the Crimea but we have never managed to take Sevastopol or Stalino let alone anything further east. I almost think there should be a small Super-heavy RR Artillery card (that lasts 2-3 turns) in the mix that would negate the no retreat effect of the 3 strength garrisons or get rid of the negative shifts of the defenses. It used to be that you could use an airborne unit to get those surprise shifts and exchange the 3 point garrison but that option is not guaranteed now. (Rightly, in my opinion as it always seemed off to be parachuting into a major city.) I should also mention that the changes to the air combat system also seem to be working ok but I have no idea how you could ever fly an unescorted bombing or ground support mission. Even limiting it to one interceptor would normally give a +2. Perhaps this is what the Soviets should be doing? They do have the fuel to be able to pull dead units out of the pool but only being able to do it at the start of the month really limits it.
Here is an updated Ground CRT with a summary of Leading Strong.
And the reason for that is that buying back that Motorized unit will also cost 1/2 FP to buy out of the Force Pool. Combine that with the 1/2 PP for Motorized Infantry or 1/2 EP for a Small Heavy unit, and that's a pretty dear price. So, THESE "little guys" are truly "1st Line" troops to lose.
Here's what's in the ETO rules: 1: Leading Strong: When selecting your step loss from a Combat Result, you must always prefer:
· A participating friendly 1st Line (i.e., a non-Garrison or 2nd Line [symbol]) Ground unit…
o That does not have a stripe (located behind its strength and movement values), OR
o That has a stripe but is Motorized.
Doesn't the rule "Leading Strong" requre that a multi-step non-stripped unit take the loss rather than a 3-1-6 Tank Corps? This means you can't sacrifice Tank Corps just to keep a line of 8-4 Armies.
It appears to have worked now. The hardest part was getting the image off my camera to the desktop. Hopefully, the image can be resized to get any detail desired.
For pictures, I think you just drag-and-drop...
As an aside, when I post something like this, would it help if I figured out how to put a picture in the comments?
We restarted the game and this time I am the Soviets. We are testing a rule whereby no Armies can be built up if they are in a ZOC. It does not stop a Soviet mystery meat unit from building to an army though so you can still get 4-5-4s into the line fairly easily. It certainly restricts the Soviet ability to rebuild more than the Axis.
We have finished Sept 2
Soviets have been pushed back to a point just in front of the Narva river by Leningrad and I expect to be retreating to it if he keep pushing. Odessa fell in late August as he got next to it before I could get the 3 pt fort in it. Kiev is still holding but will go down in the next turn or two. He was pushing harder in other areas in the south hoping get next to Dnepropetrovsk before I could get the fort there as well. I still hold the river line because he actually rolled a bad number on a 2:1 across it. We have had lots of turns of cloudy but with little effect on the Axis. Two turns of rain, one which helped the Soviets reform a bit in Sept and the other did nothing other than reduce his air.
Soviets still hold Smolensk but the line has been getting thinner. The centre is quite thin with mostly 4-5-4's holding areas where he doesn't have enough to attack. So far, we both agree that the history has been good with the change to the rebuilding rules. The Axis is strong but mostly because my counterattacks at 2:1 have been pretty ineffective at causing losses to his armour. His air has been rolling very well in general when getting both offensive or defensive shifts.
The big change seems to be that it is much harder to attack as the Soviets when the line is infiltrated and stretched. Not being able to build up to 8-4s has been huge in stopping 2:1's and is allowing the Axis to hold a solider line themselves with corps. We'll see how it plays out over the winter and in 42 but right now, I think it is a good rule and is in line with the one that disallows mech army movement in bad weather
I am working on another scenario for you to try.
Interesting. This definitely makes it more painful to play and will make you think more. Those missing two months of cards tend to give you a bunch of various replacement points or other very useful events. In the game I reference, we only rolled one turn of extreme cold through the winter which was painful enough as it didn't save many PPs and was pretty much a wasted large card play. Having it as two months with no cards drawn might be too much of a negative. No card draw during the next month would make it more of a decision. I guess we'll see
I know I have shared many of the cards changed. We did add missing out drawing cards because unless you were right in the middle of a major push, you would pick to winterize.
Now getting one more attack before the MUD on October I, you will miss November and December card draws.
This is why the Kiev pocket was so important historically. The Axis stretched the Soviets a great deal with the loss of all those forces, and then more at the beginning of Typhoon. The Soviet line got thinner and thinner in the south to hold Moscow and its link to Leningrad.
When the Germans feel stalled, they do seem to reach for it. I'm not sure which version of the card you're using, but I recall raising the Axis' stakes for selecting it...
Often, that is the difference between taking Moscow or not. Those last few supported attacks on Moscow can at least make Stalin evacuate (his bowels, if not the city).
We did assume that using up 3-1-6's like that would come back to haunt the Soviets but it didn't feel like it would matter as they were still so strong and I was like the Germans pushing for Moscow in the winter. Almost made it but not quite. One thing we have seen is an almost automatic taking of the Winterization Card in October. With mud coming quickly, you can't really attack anyway so we figure that it not really a big loss to have the HQs not go into attack mode. Perhaps this is a Canadian assumption based on fear of extreme cold? We've had a week of -35 in Calgary with -55 wind chill equivalents. I still had a guy come into my store in shorts the other day though we did think he was crazy to be doing it.
Too bad you didn't play long enough for that to bite the Soviets in the butt. Their cost in EPs + FPs eventually plays heck on the Soviets from 1943 on as they lack the depth of those resources to create sufficient Tank Army formations and support them. Still, it is a good short-term solution to the crisis of the Axis invasion, but like borrowing money all the time, eventually, it hollows you out.
The Blitzkrieg! card, we have found, is great for a counteroffensive, by the way. It can stuff a Soviet breakthrough from getting too far ahead of itself and really punish advancing Soviet units.
But you have discovered the "secret sauce," and that is to kill a lot of Soviet steps in '41. Of course, making pockets is the best way, as is infiltration, but you really have to pull all the stops and take your own lumps if it means killing Soviet steps.
The Case Blue victory condition count, I think, we changed recently, but Jay probably remembers more about that than I do.
I'm impressed you got to Kiev so early!
If the Germans have done well in 1941 with killing Soviets, 1942 become more possible. I was working on a Spring 1942 start where the Soviets have ~110 steps on the map and 52 PPs, 26 EPs and 28 FPs after the seasonal collection. The WHITE Case Blue line should be close to the start line. Soviets start with 43 MPs.
The Germans will not be full strength but; if the Soviets are much stronger than this level, a big breakthrough will be hard. You need a breakout to lengthen the front to have a better chance to kill units and move forward.
I had a bad May 1942 and gained maybe 6 KGs in a couple turns and I knew you must do better in 41 to have a good 42.