This game was using the Vassal module to track things but played in person. The only change we make was to have the Romanians, Hungarians, and Italians limited to being south of a hexrow that was a couple of hexes north of Voronezh (the northenmost point of the SW front). We actually just finished July 42 on the current game using no rule changes before we called it. I tried some different strategies as the Germans this time. My July Axis card was the German Generals that allowed infantry to move in ZOCS and get full movement in the special movement. Worked great for cleaning up pockets quickly and got me to Kiev much faster than was normal. I think I took it on the last turn of July and then tried the river crossing card to outflank it in August. Pushed hard to get adjacent to Odessa and Dnepropetrovsk before he could put a 3-pt IDP in them. I managed to take them both before the October reinforcements as well as Smolensk. Also got up to the Narva river line by Leningrad. Weather was excellent all summer other than a few turns. It felt historical up to that point.
Maximum mud turns in the fall slowed things of course and some bad rolls stopped me a few hexes before Stalino though I did manage to take Kharkov (for the first time ever) as well as Orel. Good rolls might have allowed for Stalino to fall in the late fall or winter. Winter and spring were mostly back and forth bludgeoning contests and I managed to get across the final river before Leningrad. Spring mud allowed a huge buildup of the Soviets of course as I really couldn't attack for 5 turns. Being able to take 3-1-6's as losses saved the Soviets and allowed him to keep a line of 8-4's on the map despite the fact that he was being stretched in July 42 and we figured would be out of PPs by the October turn.
I actually managed to cut off Leningrad and take the hex on the other side of the straits but he then immediately counter attacked and kicked me out on a 6 roll on the July 4 turn. That is definitely a hex that should get a 3-pt fort if the Germans are threatening it. Winter attacks had taken the Valdi Hills area and had reached the reservoir by Moscow but their line was solid with 8's all the way to the Black Sea. By the end of July, I had two tank corp in the pool, 3 reduced ones on the map and a ton of reduced infantry. This was after almost being full strength at the start of July. Two fuel left and two equipment with no OPs. Soviets had been making an average of 5-8 attacks every turn since spring mud ended at minimum odds of 2-1 or 3-1 after HQ support even though I was defending with 10 to 16 point piles everywhere. I couldn't really stop infiltration and ZOCs by the 6-4-5's and other armour of course. I was actually taking forts most of the winter rather than building up a couple of cadres just to keep the odds down. I got within three hexes of Moscow (mostly through winter attacks) but there was just no way to get closer. Lots of back and forth there against any hex in clear terrain with or without a fort. Soviets would have run out of PP by Sept 4 and ended July with 23 PP, 11 Fuel, and 19 Equipment.
We decided to stop on July 4 after his successful Leningrad counter attack as there was no way I could make any more progress and was indeed getting pushed back in the Orel area. Things were just getting worse and worse even though he was getting thinner in places.
Comments: I never did use the 1942 Blitzkrieg card as he was so strong. Hard to advance and breakthrough when you are going to get hit by 4-5 hex counter attacks of 11-15 point piles. I'm also not sure what you can do to defend with the Axis if you can't keep the Soviets stretched. You can't have a solid line of 6's as it is too easy to get 3-1's on you and if you stack them, you can get infiltrated unless you have a line of two defenders and then a gap of one hex, anywhere there is a 6-4-5. It still feels like the Soviets are too strong to me though this was they game where they had been stretched the hardest. Getting to the Case Blue victory conditions seems almost impossible let alone, getting a draw for that time frame.
We are debating using a rule that would not allow you to build up army sized units in an enemy ZOC. The new weather rules affecting all motorized army movement at times gave me the idea. While this would affect both sides, it will have a bigger effect on the Soviets as they will have to pull a 4-5-4 out of the line to make it an 8-4. This would not prevent a mystery meat unit from becoming a 4-5-4 as it does not start as an army. I'm thinking this would keep a lot more smaller units in the front but still allow you to build up for counterattacks if you wanted to. German attacks and infiltration would be easier which would allow for a more historical stretching of the Soviets. With the 4-5-4's unable to build in the line, you can't produce an instant counter attack force if the Germans do punch into your lines.
If the Germans have done well in 1941 with killing Soviets, 1942 become more possible. I was working on a Spring 1942 start where the Soviets have ~110 steps on the map and 52 PPs, 26 EPs and 28 FPs after the seasonal collection. The WHITE Case Blue line should be close to the start line. Soviets start with 43 MPs.
The Germans will not be full strength but; if the Soviets are much stronger than this level, a big breakthrough will be hard. You need a breakout to lengthen the front to have a better chance to kill units and move forward.
I had a bad May 1942 and gained maybe 6 KGs in a couple turns and I knew you must do better in 41 to have a good 42.
Too bad you didn't play long enough for that to bite the Soviets in the butt. Their cost in EPs + FPs eventually plays heck on the Soviets from 1943 on as they lack the depth of those resources to create sufficient Tank Army formations and support them. Still, it is a good short-term solution to the crisis of the Axis invasion, but like borrowing money all the time, eventually, it hollows you out.
The Blitzkrieg! card, we have found, is great for a counteroffensive, by the way. It can stuff a Soviet breakthrough from getting too far ahead of itself and really punish advancing Soviet units.
But you have discovered the "secret sauce," and that is to kill a lot of Soviet steps in '41. Of course, making pockets is the best way, as is infiltration, but you really have to pull all the stops and take your own lumps if it means killing Soviet steps.
The Case Blue victory condition count, I think, we changed recently, but Jay probably remembers more about that than I do.
I'm impressed you got to Kiev so early!
Kiev was early for sure. I think he was a little off balance because of the earlier card play allowing me to clean up pockets quickly. I was moving faster than we had seen before. Normally it doesn't fall until late August or September for us. One thing that we still have problems with is getting anywhere near Sevastopol on time, let alone to the other areas in the south that were taken before winter.
We did assume that using up 3-1-6's like that would come back to haunt the Soviets but it didn't feel like it would matter as they were still so strong and I was like the Germans pushing for Moscow in the winter. Almost made it but not quite. One thing we have seen is an almost automatic taking of the Winterization Card in October. With mud coming quickly, you can't really attack anyway so we figure that it not really a big loss to have the HQs not go into attack mode. Perhaps this is a Canadian assumption based on fear of extreme cold? We've had a week of -35 in Calgary with -55 wind chill equivalents. I still had a guy come into my store in shorts the other day though we did think he was crazy to be doing it.
This is why the Kiev pocket was so important historically. The Axis stretched the Soviets a great deal with the loss of all those forces, and then more at the beginning of Typhoon. The Soviet line got thinner and thinner in the south to hold Moscow and its link to Leningrad.
When the Germans feel stalled, they do seem to reach for it. I'm not sure which version of the card you're using, but I recall raising the Axis' stakes for selecting it...
Often, that is the difference between taking Moscow or not. Those last few supported attacks on Moscow can at least make Stalin evacuate (his bowels, if not the city).
I know I have shared many of the cards changed. We did add missing out drawing cards because unless you were right in the middle of a major push, you would pick to winterize.
Now getting one more attack before the MUD on October I, you will miss November and December card draws.
Interesting. This definitely makes it more painful to play and will make you think more. Those missing two months of cards tend to give you a bunch of various replacement points or other very useful events. In the game I reference, we only rolled one turn of extreme cold through the winter which was painful enough as it didn't save many PPs and was pretty much a wasted large card play. Having it as two months with no cards drawn might be too much of a negative. No card draw during the next month would make it more of a decision. I guess we'll see
I am working on another scenario for you to try.
We restarted the game and this time I am the Soviets. We are testing a rule whereby no Armies can be built up if they are in a ZOC. It does not stop a Soviet mystery meat unit from building to an army though so you can still get 4-5-4s into the line fairly easily. It certainly restricts the Soviet ability to rebuild more than the Axis.
We have finished Sept 2
Soviets have been pushed back to a point just in front of the Narva river by Leningrad and I expect to be retreating to it if he keep pushing. Odessa fell in late August as he got next to it before I could get the 3 pt fort in it. Kiev is still holding but will go down in the next turn or two. He was pushing harder in other areas in the south hoping get next to Dnepropetrovsk before I could get the fort there as well. I still hold the river line because he actually rolled a bad number on a 2:1 across it. We have had lots of turns of cloudy but with little effect on the Axis. Two turns of rain, one which helped the Soviets reform a bit in Sept and the other did nothing other than reduce his air.
Soviets still hold Smolensk but the line has been getting thinner. The centre is quite thin with mostly 4-5-4's holding areas where he doesn't have enough to attack. So far, we both agree that the history has been good with the change to the rebuilding rules. The Axis is strong but mostly because my counterattacks at 2:1 have been pretty ineffective at causing losses to his armour. His air has been rolling very well in general when getting both offensive or defensive shifts.
The big change seems to be that it is much harder to attack as the Soviets when the line is infiltrated and stretched. Not being able to build up to 8-4s has been huge in stopping 2:1's and is allowing the Axis to hold a solider line themselves with corps. We'll see how it plays out over the winter and in 42 but right now, I think it is a good rule and is in line with the one that disallows mech army movement in bad weather
As an aside, when I post something like this, would it help if I figured out how to put a picture in the comments?
For pictures, I think you just drag-and-drop...
It appears to have worked now. The hardest part was getting the image off my camera to the desktop. Hopefully, the image can be resized to get any detail desired.
Doesn't the rule "Leading Strong" requre that a multi-step non-stripped unit take the loss rather than a 3-1-6 Tank Corps? This means you can't sacrifice Tank Corps just to keep a line of 8-4 Armies.
Here's what's in the ETO rules: 1: Leading Strong: When selecting your step loss from a Combat Result, you must always prefer:
· A participating friendly 1st Line (i.e., a non-Garrison or 2nd Line [symbol]) Ground unit…
o That does not have a stripe (located behind its strength and movement values), OR
o That has a stripe but is Motorized.
OK, now I'm confused. Downloaded ETO Rules vol-2 v0-45 TMS again to make sure I had the latest...(quoted from the above document)
"
*Leading Strong: When selecting your own step loss from a Combat Result, you must always prefer:
· A participating friendly 1st Line (i.e., non-Garrison or 2nd Line [symbol]) Ground unit…
· That does not have a stripe (located behind its strength and movement values).
This applies only to Combat Results Table specific single step losses and not losses suffered for other reasons (e.g., a Retreat through an EZOC per 238.3.3, isolation attrition, etc.).
"
So is there some version I'm missing which has that 3rd dot point about having a stripe but is motorized?
Thanks!
Phil
@Phillip Niven , yes. I haven't updated that for the public in a while. I've been working feverishly to get a new version ready and currently it's in the team's hands to inspect. Essentially, it is the first COMPLETE pass of ALL the rules for ETO, much better organized, with graphics, and virtually complete.
When the team has had their inspection, my plan it to put it out there for the public. Oh, and currently the version number is v0-53, for whatever that's worth. 😀
And the reason for that is that buying back that Motorized unit will also cost 1/2 FP to buy out of the Force Pool. Combine that with the 1/2 PP for Motorized Infantry or 1/2 EP for a Small Heavy unit, and that's a pretty dear price. So, THESE "little guys" are truly "1st Line" troops to lose.
Here is an updated Ground CRT with a summary of Leading Strong.