Sharing some thoughts and feelings that have been bugging me for awhile and wondering if others were experiencing the same problems. One of the things that appealed to me about TiTE (RAW) was the simplicity in design and systems. The rules were digestible and made logical sense with few exceptions written into the rules. I felt like I could play the game rather than the game playing me. My one complaint was the cards. While the cards are cool and add an element of variety, they added a heavy burden to learn and know every single card in order to account for it in your play.
Fast forward to TiTE2. I feel like the rules have bloated and become less digestible. The card changes improved the narrative of the campaign, but adds more complexity to the timing and availability of cards. I still feel the need to memorize every opponent card so I can account for it, but find it harder to do so. I find myself being surprised by some minute rule reference or by non-standard card play. In short, I feel the game has grown in complexity to the point where I can't hold it in my head; I have to constantly rule reference to make sure I'm playing it right or check if something is legal. Or I have to load up a solo Vassal file to remind myself what cards the enemy has available and when. I've had a quite a few things in my current game where the path of the game was significantly altered due to either rules mis-interpretations/knowledge and/or mis-remembering card knowledge (i.e. I thought this card could only be played in 1942 or later).
I don't have any firm actions to suggest; I just wanted to bring up the issue and see if others were suffering from what I perceive as a higher cognitive load that the ETO versions of the game demands.
The Middle Sea uses more of the rules with more sea and ships.
For all what matters for TITE specifically you may skip on the naval rules and stick to the Rules as Written pratically or go by 'history'. Baltic is German Lake, Gulf of Finland is for Soviets and in the Black Sea pratically Soviets can operate and Axis can at best supply ports (with that little Romanian merchant marine that was there)..
One does not need to gain a headache for a marginal part of the game - but as pointed out since ETO is a system for the whole european theather, naval rules are required.
The rest of the rules though are keeping updated due to tests, a quest for balance and relative historical flavour.
Robert, I like the quality as well as the tone of your comments at various sites. I hope to hear more from you. The "difficulty" I see with the naval rules is only that the initial work of learning TITE 2 rules should proceed more smoothly if one ignores naval rules until one, it is hoped, is really enjoying the game and is ready to add a little chrome. Even then, there is so little to do with naval units that one does not benefit from their regular use, so they are harder to fix in one's memory. This is also a difficulty with some other aspects of the rules such as the ME theater having extra turns in the winter while EE is time-locked, and the business of having RPs assigned to the ME portion of Russia is a lot of bother until playing a multi-volume ETO game (when it becomes possible)--again, until we encounter their use sufficiently. I have not played TMS, but the naval rules are probably good like the whole ETO system generally is. I agree that learning them in TITE 2 is a way to get one's feet wet for TMS.
David
My point about the naval rules being “difficult” was in the context of a TITE2 scenario where the impact of naval operations is bound to be marginal. The difficulty is that it reduces the incentive to really ingest the detail of the rule and it also is that worthwhile naval operations are fewer than they might be on other fronts and that means limited practical use of the rules.
My comment was in intended to be positive. I was using TITE 2 to get a feel for the naval rules without them dominating the game so it seemed a good idea to try and use TITE 2 for this purpose and I have made good progress. That also leads me to think that the naval rules are no more difficult than they should be and like other aspects of the rules they should become familiar routines when playing scenarios where naval action is more prominent.
It is just an example of the tension between the development of ETO (which requires the full rule set to be worked out) and playing a short scenario which doesnt need much of that stuff. It is the same with the white bolt paneers. As you suggest their long term impact may be important but that may not be detectable within a single scenario. Comments from these different perspectives need to be allowed for.
From the perspective of a seventy year old mammal perhaps a few whispers to the ETO T-Rexes are in order. Yes, I too have read and reread the ETO rules. In all likelihood, I have ended up with more questions than answers.
All of us have played wargames that didn't merit the name wargame. I feel very fortunate to be able to examine, learn and play ETO.
Being seventy-years old I suspect I have a short future compared to a lengthy past. To be able to delve into a game like ETO and to learn how to play the game is very challenging in order to try and avoid the footfalls of ETO T'-Rexes.
Yes, I appreciate the efforts of the ETO team and the Watchword players. All are to be commended in your desire to make ETO the best it can be. Your efforts haven't gone unnoticed.
This small mammal will continue to try and scamper around the footfalls of ETO T-Rexes. After all, "standing on the shoulders of giants" is a worthy aim for any tiny mammal.
Robert, For TITE 2, I see no need to use the naval rules, especially before being conversant with all the other rules. The ability to Disband numerous ships is a good source of RPs for the Russians, so I would still include them for this purpose. The elite White-Bolt Pzs took me a while to warm up to. There is an interesting choice at times between having a 14-9-6 with it's Bolt (and a 10-6) vs. the punch of a Pz Army. In 1942, it is not practical to use Stukas, so the extra Bolt, when added to two from less vulnerable bombers, means you can usually get another Shift in CS in Fair, Mud or Cloudy weather, thanks in part to Partial results. TITE 2 is not as simple as TITE, and I have to keep removing many rules from my mind that are not current, many of which only a few on the Dev team have ever worked with before they were changed. We have a lot of testing to do for late '41 on, but there is so much to enjoy that is new, and so many unrealistic elements have been corrected.
I have just finished reading the ETO rules and I admit I found them a hard slog. They are clearly some way from being ready for publication and some sections are evidently incomplete. Allowances need to be made for this.
I considered that there was a bit of unnecessary verbiage including in the introduction but I cannot really dispute the designer choosing to take time to explain the organisation. The real challenge will be that the rules have to be for scenarios, combined games and campaign games and managing the rules for those different structures is going to be tough. I suggest getting rules relating only to specific modules and specific scenarios into the scenario books as far as possible.
As it happens I am not much of a fan of the white bolt armoured units but it is not a thing much more than a Change option.
i am also playing Barbarossa with TITE 2 rules. I have to say that once you overcome a few new facets of the card play then the ground game of Barbarossa is still close to the same simplicity it had in TITE 1. The same is true for the air rules, a few changes don’t add complexity in these areas.
i still regard the naval rules as difficult but that is because there is limited opportunity to familiarise myself with them through use. I believe I have understood the basic system of the naval units and it is quite a bit like air units. I am also pleased to see that in a TITE scenario naval operations are not going to dominate and in Barbarossa the Russian fleet in the Baltic will only come out if there is an important reason - until the Tirpitz disappears.
The cards, politics and production rules also have some points that are still unclear but this will also be because they relate to the developing combined and campaign games. A complexity which is inherent in the game will be tension between short term and long term planning, Some aspects of cards and politics won’t make sense in a 12 turn scenario because there isn’t enough time for the payback.
Or you could just read it as rule 237 (since you don't need to care that there is a numbering SYSTEM to the rules), and leave it at that!!!! :-)
Yeah, that's what I do ... but the overriding arc that I'm trying to get across, are the rules are becoming fragmented. I know it is a work in progress, but the rules are heading down that rabbit hole. Consider that I'm the outsider looking in. I see things from the perspective that is more representative of those that could buy the game and ultimate ETO system. I really want this ETO to succeed, not just get published.
I think the attempt to organize the system will be served better with just Chapters instead of the section conversion one may need. I like the seperation, but it needs to make sense immediately. So I see you're at 5 Chapters right now, A through E.
Chapter A - Core Rules
Chapter B - Ground Rules
Chapter C - Air Rules
Chapter D - Naval Rules
Chapter E - Strategic Rules
and for future expansion add on kicks ....
(Chapter F - Minor Nations)
(Chapter G - Optional Rules)
etc.
So Chapter B3.7 is the Ground Results. Rule C2.6 is Strike Missions. It's much simpler than the current format and intuitive ... and has the direct consequence to immediately direct players to what section they need to be in, from the start of their first rule reading, without any conversion process.
This is the ASL method, and has successfully worked worldwide for 35 years. Just saying we don't need to re-invent the wheel when there is a method that works ... the ASL Chapter format is considered a standard and will greatly help ETO as it becomes more complex.
That needs to be repeated ... the ASL Chapter format is considered a standard and will greatly help ETO as it becomes more complex.
Just some more 0.02 zlotey.
Brian
The current rules .doc file includes every sidebar and the design teams "notes to ourselves" and EVERYTHING for EVERY ETO game. It is neither formatted nor laid out professionally. It is just a "word dump" so we can search everything in one document.
Good grief, of course the page count is huge under those circumstances...
The ETO Rules a work in progress. Some items might not come into play for two or three games but, staying together allows searchs with some key words through the full set of rules. In the end the rules must help the new player learn the game as well as restrict the rules lawyers that check the boundries of the game.
Some folks would prefer TITE for its relative simplicity. TITE 2 is so improved, but is more involved. I might be a bit overwhelmed by the large, multi-volume ETO games--we'll see. Regarding the unfamiliarity with the opponent's cards and unpleasant surprises, there could be something written about the dangerous cards. Most cards won't surprise you. Axis cards to be wary of include German Officers Show Initiative, Strategic Redeployment, Army Org'n, Roll Bahns, Prepared Crossing, Nationalists and Exiles, Panzer Blitz, German Generals, Blitzkrieg, Stand Fast and Air Offensive. Some cards help one or two battles and are no big deal, so I won't mention them. The Independent Ukraine is so expensive in EP it probably is impractical early on. Russian cards to be wary of include Strategic Redeployment, Nationalists Stir, Repel the Invader (changed to one turn, and only in '42+), the big three reinforcement cards ofEM, MM, and LBC , GPW, Zhukov, I Believe..., Katyushas, Human Waves, Soviet Spies, and Commissar Motivates Troops. There are a number of others that don't make sense till late '42+. It is useful to know when major Soviet OOB events occur, which is harder with OOB cards than Displays alone: Autumn of '41 (Shock Armies and Tk Corps), Summer of '42 (La 5 Fighters, Gds Armies), etc.
Graham,
I said what you just said somewhere else a long time ago, so probably CSW.
From our game, you see the "errors" I keep making that I didn't make in TitE1. TitE1 was smoother, no doubt. What happened is exceptions keep getting added in, as well as every bit of "chrome" that gets added, the rule set suffers somewhere. For example, was it really necessary to add heavy white bolt panzers? Sounds cool, but really an extra rule or two for little gain.
Even the nomenclature is freaking confusing! (Give me my ASL any day!)
For example, from the latest rule set,
Example: If you were reading Rule 237, the ‘2’ is Section II, The Ground Game; the ‘3’ is Part C, Ground Combat; and the ‘7’ is the seventh rule of Ground Combat, which is Ground Combat Results.
Like what the heck!?!?! Then just say the rule number is (II)(C)(7). Why the hell do I need to convert it from numbers. In U.S. laws, they clearly do it such as 40CFR 26.C-23 ... or NJAC 7:26E.(3)(a)(i-iii). Or just say the rules is 237 and leave it at that!!!!
For me, the rule format is less intuitive, and searching is a real problem ... and I say this as a player. I think we both represent the common gamer.
We're not playtesters or developers of this game, and don't have the entire rule set on our night stand. So I would hope the powers that be recognize what we're saying. It is a warning that the game is distancing itself if it continues down this path.
My 0.02 zlotey.
Brian
Much of the TITE2 stuff complexity is because of increased scope. Being compatible with the other volumes (i.e., increasing the scope) cannot be done with some added rules weight.
The cards? Jay is right about the system, but not every card in the playtest kit will make it into the published game. Those are there for playtesting and then we'll pick the best. At least, that's the plan. 😀
If someone wants to do that, we can certainly publish it on this website! That would be sort of cool...
The card play has broaden a bit. The old system could be gamed but playing a powerful card in December and having the card return via the early system with the start of the new year. Now all cards are placed usually one or two season ahead on the turn track. I think after just a few seasons of play, the card play will be fully understood and is not adding too much complexity. The Naval system was a placeholder when it went into the box. There has been naval play tested and seems to work well for its limited activity around Russia as well as the play in The Middle Sea. There will not be many more rules to play TMS. There is a world transit map that is not needed from TiTE. Alan is looking at the full ETO game system with some of the new OOB card changes. When playing two or three of the future games together, the new units being sent to the front will be part of the overall play. The game design for the future games has added new ideas back to the TiTE game. Should TiTE2 have a basic rules set option in addition to the full ETO system? You could easily play without the Naval units and use the OOB mat. Maybe a small deck of basic cards would make card selection easier. The repair of destroyed planes has changed. Few other parts of the game play have changed. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and Ideas. It helps in the plans for the next steps. Others, please share your thought too. They are very welcome.